According to the blog "LoserWithSocks" , Notre Dame running back Darius Walker, who was picked up as a free agent by the Chicago Bears, is angry that he wasn't drafted.
“Shocked, shocked,” he said Tuesday, when asked to describe his general reaction. “It’s kind of hard to believe, to be honest with you. How does a guy that’s fourth on the all-time rushing list for Notre Dame not get drafted?”
And it’s good to see that Walkers father has stayed rational about the situation.
“Even if he ran a 4.7, he should have been drafted,” he said. “To me, as a father, he deserved to be drafted very highly. I’m not even talking about the second day. I was disappointed he didn’t go the first day. He deserved to be on the first day."
It's true that Walker was lost amoung the 7 Notre Dame players that were selected in what Irish fans are calling their best NFL Draft in decades. I might remind everyone that all of the player selected were recruited by Tyrone Willingham and not Charlie Weis.
Wednesday, May 2, 2007
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Darius Walker and Father Angry That He Was Not Drafted
According to the blog "LoserWithSocks" , Notre Dame running back Darius Walker, who was picked up as a free agent by the Chicago Bears, is angry that he wasn't drafted.
“Shocked, shocked,” he said Tuesday, when asked to describe his general reaction. “It’s kind of hard to believe, to be honest with you. How does a guy that’s fourth on the all-time rushing list for Notre Dame not get drafted?”
And it’s good to see that Walkers father has stayed rational about the situation.
“Even if he ran a 4.7, he should have been drafted,” he said. “To me, as a father, he deserved to be drafted very highly. I’m not even talking about the second day. I was disappointed he didn’t go the first day. He deserved to be on the first day."
It's true that Walker was lost amoung the 7 Notre Dame players that were selected in what Irish fans are calling their best NFL Draft in decades. I might remind everyone that all of the player selected were recruited by Tyrone Willingham and not Charlie Weis.
“Shocked, shocked,” he said Tuesday, when asked to describe his general reaction. “It’s kind of hard to believe, to be honest with you. How does a guy that’s fourth on the all-time rushing list for Notre Dame not get drafted?”
And it’s good to see that Walkers father has stayed rational about the situation.
“Even if he ran a 4.7, he should have been drafted,” he said. “To me, as a father, he deserved to be drafted very highly. I’m not even talking about the second day. I was disappointed he didn’t go the first day. He deserved to be on the first day."
It's true that Walker was lost amoung the 7 Notre Dame players that were selected in what Irish fans are calling their best NFL Draft in decades. I might remind everyone that all of the player selected were recruited by Tyrone Willingham and not Charlie Weis.
Notre Dame QB Brady Quinn Arrives At Cleveland Brows Headquaters - AP
Browns welcome Brady Quinn home
By TOM WITHERS
AP Sports Writer
AP PHOTO/TONY DEJAK
Cleveland Browns' Brady Quinn , right, arrives along with his girlfriend, Lindy Slinger, at the Cleveland Browns facility, Sunday, April 29, 2007, in Berea, Ohio.
BEREA, Ohio — Brady Quinn stepped out from behind the black limousine's tinted windows into brilliant Sunday sunshine. He wore blue jeans, a zippered windbreaker and a Browns baseball cap. He was dressed casually, if not for the occasion.
"I think he was just worn out from wearing that suit all day yesterday," said tackle Joe Thomas, Quinn's new teammate.
One day after his stunning slide in the first round became the biggest story of the NFL draft, Quinn began a new chapter in his storied football career.
Passed over by 20 other teams, Quinn was introduced at a news conference by the Browns, the team he dreamed of playing for as a kid and the one who passed over him to take Thomas at No. 3 before trading up to select Notre Dame's golden-armed quarterback.
Quinn spent four agonizing hours Saturday waiting in the wings at Radio City Music Hall for his name to be called. With national TV cameras trained on him sitting backstage, he smiled and tried to make the best of an awkward situation as team after team chose other players.
Booed at first, the draftniks on hand in New York began to sympathize with Quinn as the clock painfully ticked on.
"It's the Notre Dame quarterback thing, love 'em or hate 'em," Quinn said.
The biggest day of his life quickly became a nightmare for the 22-year-old, who ran around his backyard as a boy pretending he was Browns iconic QB Bernie Kosar slinging touchdown passes in front of an imaginary Dawg Pound.
But just when it couldn't get bleaker, the Browns saved Quinn. They gave Dallas a second-round pick this year and first-round pick in 2008 to move up and take Quinn with the 22nd pick.
Now, it's Quinn's turn to save the Browns, who have been mostly luckless losers in the eight years since their expansion return.
He's ready for the challenge.
"I'm accustomed to coming into a new situation and changing the attitudes and the way people think," he said. "I want to change the way people feel in the fourth quarter when there are two minutes left and we have the ball at the 20. I think it's a big thing that people don't understand.
"You have to keep believing. It's never OK to lose."
Quinn's free fall through the first round may have damaged more than his reputation. It likely cost him more than $25 million in guaranteed money, a fact he dismissed as easily as sidestepping a blitzing linebacker.
"If you are successful in the NFL, you're going to make money," he said. "It's not a big deal. I'm not a guy who comes from a lot of money. I'm a blue-collar, hardworking kid and for me it's a dream to be drafted in the first round."
Quinn came to Sunday's affair not thinking he needed to dress up. But when he saw Thomas, who skipped a draft-day trip to New York to go fishing, in a pinstriped suit, Quinn broke out a sport coat, slacks and tie.
His decision to change delayed the news conference.
"We thought it would be his girlfriend getting ready," joked general manager Phil Savage. "We made you wait yesterday, and you made us wait today."
Quinn will be looked upon as a savior in Cleveland, expected to carry the Browns back to greatness.
He's used to the heavy lifting. As Notre Dame's starting QB for four years, every move he made was scrutinized by the school's worldwide fan base. There may be no tougher job in college football - other than coaching the Fighting Irish - than quarterbacking them.
Quinn feels his pressure-packed collegiate career will serve him well.
"Notre Dame prepared me as best as it could have," he said. "When you look at the aspects of playing nationally televised games and the competition week in and week out. I was dealing with the media from Day 1. Obviously, there were times in my career where we started losing and that's when you feel the heat.
"I've been through the fire and adversity, and that's a positive for me."
Another plus was playing under coach Charlie Weis, who before going to Notre Dame helped develop Tom Brady into a Pro Bowl quarterback and Super Bowl champion as New England's offensive coordinator.
Although the Browns are months away from possibly naming Quinn their starter, Weis believes it's a foregone conclusion.
"I don't think this guy has to go to a program and be groomed for a year," Weis said. "If there was ever a quarterback who was ready to go for the last two years, it's him. He's got hammered in the last two years by me so he can take it by anybody."
Not long after being picked by the Browns, Quinn was whisked to Cleveland in one of owner Randy Lerner's private jets. He arrived at the team's headquarters late Saturday night, weary from a long, emotional day.
But when he walked through the front doors for the first time as a Brown, all the anxiety and embarrassment he may have felt in New York were replaced by a soothing calm. Quinn knew he was home.
"It felt amazing," he said. "In the draft, after I got passed by the Browns, I didn't think they were going to come back and get me.
"Once I got here, it felt real."
By TOM WITHERS
AP Sports Writer
AP PHOTO/TONY DEJAK
Cleveland Browns' Brady Quinn , right, arrives along with his girlfriend, Lindy Slinger, at the Cleveland Browns facility, Sunday, April 29, 2007, in Berea, Ohio.
BEREA, Ohio — Brady Quinn stepped out from behind the black limousine's tinted windows into brilliant Sunday sunshine. He wore blue jeans, a zippered windbreaker and a Browns baseball cap. He was dressed casually, if not for the occasion.
"I think he was just worn out from wearing that suit all day yesterday," said tackle Joe Thomas, Quinn's new teammate.
One day after his stunning slide in the first round became the biggest story of the NFL draft, Quinn began a new chapter in his storied football career.
Passed over by 20 other teams, Quinn was introduced at a news conference by the Browns, the team he dreamed of playing for as a kid and the one who passed over him to take Thomas at No. 3 before trading up to select Notre Dame's golden-armed quarterback.
Quinn spent four agonizing hours Saturday waiting in the wings at Radio City Music Hall for his name to be called. With national TV cameras trained on him sitting backstage, he smiled and tried to make the best of an awkward situation as team after team chose other players.
Booed at first, the draftniks on hand in New York began to sympathize with Quinn as the clock painfully ticked on.
"It's the Notre Dame quarterback thing, love 'em or hate 'em," Quinn said.
The biggest day of his life quickly became a nightmare for the 22-year-old, who ran around his backyard as a boy pretending he was Browns iconic QB Bernie Kosar slinging touchdown passes in front of an imaginary Dawg Pound.
But just when it couldn't get bleaker, the Browns saved Quinn. They gave Dallas a second-round pick this year and first-round pick in 2008 to move up and take Quinn with the 22nd pick.
Now, it's Quinn's turn to save the Browns, who have been mostly luckless losers in the eight years since their expansion return.
He's ready for the challenge.
"I'm accustomed to coming into a new situation and changing the attitudes and the way people think," he said. "I want to change the way people feel in the fourth quarter when there are two minutes left and we have the ball at the 20. I think it's a big thing that people don't understand.
"You have to keep believing. It's never OK to lose."
Quinn's free fall through the first round may have damaged more than his reputation. It likely cost him more than $25 million in guaranteed money, a fact he dismissed as easily as sidestepping a blitzing linebacker.
"If you are successful in the NFL, you're going to make money," he said. "It's not a big deal. I'm not a guy who comes from a lot of money. I'm a blue-collar, hardworking kid and for me it's a dream to be drafted in the first round."
Quinn came to Sunday's affair not thinking he needed to dress up. But when he saw Thomas, who skipped a draft-day trip to New York to go fishing, in a pinstriped suit, Quinn broke out a sport coat, slacks and tie.
His decision to change delayed the news conference.
"We thought it would be his girlfriend getting ready," joked general manager Phil Savage. "We made you wait yesterday, and you made us wait today."
Quinn will be looked upon as a savior in Cleveland, expected to carry the Browns back to greatness.
He's used to the heavy lifting. As Notre Dame's starting QB for four years, every move he made was scrutinized by the school's worldwide fan base. There may be no tougher job in college football - other than coaching the Fighting Irish - than quarterbacking them.
Quinn feels his pressure-packed collegiate career will serve him well.
"Notre Dame prepared me as best as it could have," he said. "When you look at the aspects of playing nationally televised games and the competition week in and week out. I was dealing with the media from Day 1. Obviously, there were times in my career where we started losing and that's when you feel the heat.
"I've been through the fire and adversity, and that's a positive for me."
Another plus was playing under coach Charlie Weis, who before going to Notre Dame helped develop Tom Brady into a Pro Bowl quarterback and Super Bowl champion as New England's offensive coordinator.
Although the Browns are months away from possibly naming Quinn their starter, Weis believes it's a foregone conclusion.
"I don't think this guy has to go to a program and be groomed for a year," Weis said. "If there was ever a quarterback who was ready to go for the last two years, it's him. He's got hammered in the last two years by me so he can take it by anybody."
Not long after being picked by the Browns, Quinn was whisked to Cleveland in one of owner Randy Lerner's private jets. He arrived at the team's headquarters late Saturday night, weary from a long, emotional day.
But when he walked through the front doors for the first time as a Brown, all the anxiety and embarrassment he may have felt in New York were replaced by a soothing calm. Quinn knew he was home.
"It felt amazing," he said. "In the draft, after I got passed by the Browns, I didn't think they were going to come back and get me.
"Once I got here, it felt real."
COMMISSIONER GOODELL INTERVIEW WITH RICH EISEN and NFL NETWORK - NFL DRAFT – New York – April 28, 2007 - NFLMedia.com
From NFLMedia.com
COMMISSIONER GOODELL INTERVIEW
WITH RICH EISEN and NFL NETWORK CREW
NFL DRAFT – New York – April 28, 2007
NFLN: Commissioner Roger Goodell, thanks for joining this program.
Roger Goodell: I am glad to be here.
NFLN: The last voice, not Paul Tagliabue’s, to be heard in a first round in the NFL
Draft is Pete Rozelle. Now you carry on this mantle. What are your thoughts as you
get set to conduct your first draft as a commissioner?
RG: It is an exciting day for everybody in the NFL to see these young kids now getting a
chance to make their NFL dreams come true. You can’t beat it. It’s an exciting day for all
of us.
NFLN: You’ve got your throat and voice ready?
RG: I’ve been practicing. I’ve been doing my best Rich Eisen.
NFLN: Okay. I will take that, Commissioner. Let’s talk about this draft in terms of
the topic du jour: player conduct. A lot of people believe that based on your year-
long suspension of Adam Jones and half-season suspension of Chris Henry that
teams will be drafting differently this year. Do you believe that is the case?
RG: Every club is going to have their own strategy in how they are going to approach the
draft. Character has always been an issue for teams when they look at players, talent is
obviously critically important, and how the player fits into their organization. But I do
think that clubs are more sensitive to the character issue and what they need to do to get
players that are going to fit into their team structure.
NFLN: The thing I hear around the league is that the most significant piece of this is
that you are effectively taking autonomy away from the individual clubs in certain
instances. And the clubs who have a history of great character applaud that because
if you take a good player out of somebody else’s lineup, competitively it helps them.
Do you see that happening a lot?
RG: I do. We have a lot of great players who have great character in this league. We have
very few players that don’t have great character. Our teams understand that. Our teams
have great people. I am very proud of our players in the NFL.
NFLN: Roger, you were nice enough to meet with us when we came to your office
the other day and you mentioned that it will change, yes, because you came down
and put a suspension on some players. But the teams will still police themselves and
have the ability to make decisions to suspend or fine players. And really only the
league will come into it with repeat offenders or possibly real flagrant conduct
2
misactions. How will you do that with the teams? Will you allow the teams first to
make decisions and then see if you like them or will you step in immediately?
RG: It’s complex. There is no simple answer to that question. We would love to have the
clubs take responsibility for their players and discipline their players. They would love to
do that. The Players Association, also, on the other side wants to balance that by making
sure that it is done consistently and fairly among all 32 clubs and within each team. So
we’re going to look at it to try to do it in a way that is fair to the players. But one thing
should be clear here: we are not doing this to end careers. We are doing this to save
careers. We are trying to get our players back on the field doing what they do best. That
is playing football.
NFLN: Commissioner, speaking of saving careers, what are you implementing to
the teams that they do now to help some of these players to find out about their
character? When they come in, we don’t know about their character. When they get
their money, then we get to see what the real guy is like. What does the club have to
do? And if they don’t do those things, what kind of actions are you going to take
against them?
RG: We developed a lot of programs for our players over the last several years that are
designed to give resources to those players to help them deal with issues that they might
have off the field. We want to use those resources, build those resources up and make
sure that all 32 clubs are doing that intensively with their players. If they don’t, that will
be taken into consideration when I look at discipline for a club. I believe all our clubs are
going to aggressively be pursuing best practices in this area.
NFLN: How about the team that drafts a player with character issues? Do you
address that team differently? If that guy gets in trouble and they haven’t provided
the things for him, do you attack the team now? Do you take something away from
them? Do you fine them?
RG: One thing you know I don’t do is select players. I can’t control it nor do I want to
control that. I think clubs are going to be a little more sensitive to the kind of players that
they can bring into their organization and that they can mold into the kind of team that
they want. If they don’t make it for any reason and they have provided the resources,
clearly that will be taken into account. If they have not provided those resources, that will
be disappointing to me and that will be taken into account.
NFLN: What is the future of the draft? What is the possibility of playing the Super
Bowl overseas?
RG: This draft has become an incredible event for us not just today and tomorrow but
also over the last several months. The focus on the incoming class of players is just
extraordinary for us. We think that it’s great. We are looking at ways in which we can
build that. There are talks about moving it around the country. There are talks of moving
it into prime time. We have been talking about how we can bring more football to more
3
fans. As far as the international piece, we do believe that our game has a great deal of
appeal internationally. We’re playing our first regular-season game as part of a series
over in London this year and we’re going to do more of that. We’re looking at how we
can get more football to more fans globally.
RE: Since you said you were doing your best Rich Eisen impersonation, can I do my
best commissioner impersonation and demand to get the helmet phones back here?
What happened to the helmet phones?
RG: Rich, that’s a good question and I’m going to follow up on that immediately.
RE: Please do. I appreciate the follow-up on that. Commissioner, thank you for
joining us.
RG: Thanks guys. Good luck guys.
###
Giants Draft DeOssie and other day two picks
Giants draft Steve DeOssie's son
Father of fourth-round pick won Super Bowl XXV ring with Giants
BY ARTHUR STAPLE
arthur.staple@newsday.com
Steve DeOssie was one of the more colorful Giants in recent team history. Now his son will get a chance to carry on the tradition of a guy they used to call "Beach Ball."
The Giants selected Zak DeOssie in the fourth round, the first of five picks yesterday to round out their 2007 draft. The younger DeOssie, a linebacker from Brown, comes from an unlikely school to produce an NFL player, but not when you consider his bloodline.
"Go figure, right?" Steve DeOssie said yesterday. "I really felt the kid was going to get a job somewhere. It just turned out to be one of the best places possible."
Steve DeOssie was the long-snapper and a linebacker on the Giants' Super Bowl XXV championship team and spent 12 seasons with the Cowboys, Giants, Jets and Patriots. He was one of Bill Parcells' favorites - the nickname came from the many shades of red his face turned after a workout - and his son, a 6-4½, 250-pound athlete, has the desire and drive of his father.
"I broke down when [my name was called]. My old man was right next to me," said Zak, who was a ball boy for the Patriots when his father played for them. "I know the Ivy League stereotype is there - non-scholarship, small school. But you have to ignore it."
The Giants see DeOssie as a strong-side linebacker and, more importantly, as an immediate contributor on special teams. Perhaps he'll even be a long-snapper, something he took up his senior year at Brown without any prodding from his father.
"I told him when he wants to get good at it, just let me know and I'll teach him how to really do it," Steve said. "We never emphasized getting to the NFL. We emphasized real life. Him taking up long-snapping was just another indication of him trying to help a team win."
General manager Jerry Reese called his first draft as the top man "solid." The Giants were one of the few teams that didn't make a trade during draft weekend and went for areas of need, selecting four offensive and four defensive players. The only question mark as far as character goes is their last pick, seventh-rounder Ahmad Bradshaw, a running back from Marshall who has been arrested twice.
"He's got some warts," Reese said, "but he'll be on a short leash."
Giants second-day picks
Zak DeOssie, LB - Brown, 6-4½, 250
Son of Steve DeOssie, a linebacker and special-teamer on the Giants' Super Bowl XXV team ... Should compete immediately with Ryan Kuehl for the long-snapper job, which DeOssie's father held ... One of the biggest LBs available in the draft, projects to the strong side ... Surprising speed (4.58 in the 40-yard dash) for his size should add to his value on special teams ... Has the smarts but his football instincts are an issue ... So is his level of competition, coming from the Ivy League.
Kevin Boss, TE - Western Oregon, 6-6½, 252
Considered an excellent pass-catcher but below-average blocker ... Level of competition is obviously an issue, playing in Division II, but "he dominated," according to GM Jerry Reese ... Giants see him as a third TE, behind Jeremy Shockey and Darcy Johnson; could easily become the No. 2 TE with better blocking skills ... Was the center on his school's basketball team as a sophomore and junior.
Adam Koets, T - Oregon State, 6-5, 298
Made 37 consecutive starts at left tackle ... Good skills and smarts, but some scouts question his mental toughness ... Allowed only four sacks in the last two seasons ... Needs work on his run-blocking skills ... Tom Coughlin on whether Koets would move from left tackle: "Right now, that's the position we want him at."
Michael Johnson, S - Arizona, 6-3, 211
Played at a high level and has the size to play either safety; was a strong safety his two seasons at Arizona ... Missed time with a hamstring injury his senior season.
Ahmad Bradshaw, RB - Marshall, 5-9, 198
Good numbers (1,523 rushing yards, 19 TDs last season) but two arrests, one before last season for burglary and for underage alcohol possession in high school. Signed with Virginia but was released after his first arrest.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Guess Jerry Reese read my 'Ivy League report" article of 3-30??? ok maybe not,..but he must have seen him play like i did. The Kid is tremendous. everybit the player his dad was and maybe better someday.... I know some people gave the Giants draft a b- or even a c,..but for a 4th rounder this pick is a solid B+. DeOssie is closer to stepping in then anyone realizes. He DOMINATED the Ivy on Defense.....He almost beat Columbia single handed.
As for the other picks, Boss, Koets, and Johnson will have a chance to make the roster as the Giants try to get a bit younger in the depth department. Bradshaw will require watching, but could fill a "Tiki" like role someday
Bill(Draftnik)
Father of fourth-round pick won Super Bowl XXV ring with Giants
BY ARTHUR STAPLE
arthur.staple@newsday.com
Steve DeOssie was one of the more colorful Giants in recent team history. Now his son will get a chance to carry on the tradition of a guy they used to call "Beach Ball."
The Giants selected Zak DeOssie in the fourth round, the first of five picks yesterday to round out their 2007 draft. The younger DeOssie, a linebacker from Brown, comes from an unlikely school to produce an NFL player, but not when you consider his bloodline.
"Go figure, right?" Steve DeOssie said yesterday. "I really felt the kid was going to get a job somewhere. It just turned out to be one of the best places possible."
Steve DeOssie was the long-snapper and a linebacker on the Giants' Super Bowl XXV championship team and spent 12 seasons with the Cowboys, Giants, Jets and Patriots. He was one of Bill Parcells' favorites - the nickname came from the many shades of red his face turned after a workout - and his son, a 6-4½, 250-pound athlete, has the desire and drive of his father.
"I broke down when [my name was called]. My old man was right next to me," said Zak, who was a ball boy for the Patriots when his father played for them. "I know the Ivy League stereotype is there - non-scholarship, small school. But you have to ignore it."
The Giants see DeOssie as a strong-side linebacker and, more importantly, as an immediate contributor on special teams. Perhaps he'll even be a long-snapper, something he took up his senior year at Brown without any prodding from his father.
"I told him when he wants to get good at it, just let me know and I'll teach him how to really do it," Steve said. "We never emphasized getting to the NFL. We emphasized real life. Him taking up long-snapping was just another indication of him trying to help a team win."
General manager Jerry Reese called his first draft as the top man "solid." The Giants were one of the few teams that didn't make a trade during draft weekend and went for areas of need, selecting four offensive and four defensive players. The only question mark as far as character goes is their last pick, seventh-rounder Ahmad Bradshaw, a running back from Marshall who has been arrested twice.
"He's got some warts," Reese said, "but he'll be on a short leash."
Giants second-day picks
Zak DeOssie, LB - Brown, 6-4½, 250
Son of Steve DeOssie, a linebacker and special-teamer on the Giants' Super Bowl XXV team ... Should compete immediately with Ryan Kuehl for the long-snapper job, which DeOssie's father held ... One of the biggest LBs available in the draft, projects to the strong side ... Surprising speed (4.58 in the 40-yard dash) for his size should add to his value on special teams ... Has the smarts but his football instincts are an issue ... So is his level of competition, coming from the Ivy League.
Kevin Boss, TE - Western Oregon, 6-6½, 252
Considered an excellent pass-catcher but below-average blocker ... Level of competition is obviously an issue, playing in Division II, but "he dominated," according to GM Jerry Reese ... Giants see him as a third TE, behind Jeremy Shockey and Darcy Johnson; could easily become the No. 2 TE with better blocking skills ... Was the center on his school's basketball team as a sophomore and junior.
Adam Koets, T - Oregon State, 6-5, 298
Made 37 consecutive starts at left tackle ... Good skills and smarts, but some scouts question his mental toughness ... Allowed only four sacks in the last two seasons ... Needs work on his run-blocking skills ... Tom Coughlin on whether Koets would move from left tackle: "Right now, that's the position we want him at."
Michael Johnson, S - Arizona, 6-3, 211
Played at a high level and has the size to play either safety; was a strong safety his two seasons at Arizona ... Missed time with a hamstring injury his senior season.
Ahmad Bradshaw, RB - Marshall, 5-9, 198
Good numbers (1,523 rushing yards, 19 TDs last season) but two arrests, one before last season for burglary and for underage alcohol possession in high school. Signed with Virginia but was released after his first arrest.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Guess Jerry Reese read my 'Ivy League report" article of 3-30??? ok maybe not,..but he must have seen him play like i did. The Kid is tremendous. everybit the player his dad was and maybe better someday.... I know some people gave the Giants draft a b- or even a c,..but for a 4th rounder this pick is a solid B+. DeOssie is closer to stepping in then anyone realizes. He DOMINATED the Ivy on Defense.....He almost beat Columbia single handed.
As for the other picks, Boss, Koets, and Johnson will have a chance to make the roster as the Giants try to get a bit younger in the depth department. Bradshaw will require watching, but could fill a "Tiki" like role someday
Bill(Draftnik)
